ABS and counter steering

[Joe Rocket]

A serious moment for once......... I took part in a "Stage Moto Prevention" over here in July offered free by my Insurance Company; obviously a ride safely awareness push. It covered aspects of French Law for riders, including breathalysers, hi-viz vests and standards for clothing and helmets. Even those helmet stickers were a discussion point.

It also had a practical side where our riding skills were tested on Hondas provided for the purpose. Some were basic learning skills like slaloms and slow speed control exercises but I realy enjoyed just pushing the boundaries out a little when asked to perform full emergency stops to activate the ABS, both front and rear and also using counter steering to exit a coned 'garage' before braking as if avoiding a collision with an emerging vehicle.

It prompted me to ask if any of you have purposefully 'locked up' the brakes deliberately or practised counter steering as an exercise?

[vstroman]

I sometimes deliberately activate the abs on a gravel road, just because it's good for the system to give it a workout occasionally if that makes sense, other than that no. I would hope that my years of riding experience would help in an emergency situation and I hope I never have to find out, I try to read the road and traffic situations as best I can to avoid trouble, distracted driving is the biggest danger I see out there.

[UK_Vstrom650]

Greywolf was a big fan of practising emergency braking with a view to build up muscle memory so when you need the skill it is already there. He often said, if you don't practice you'll just grab a handful in a panic...
I know I don't practice emergency stopping as much as I probably should, and keep intending to practice things like figures of eight etc but don't really get time. I do filter quite a bit so I suppose that helps with low speed control...

[TLPower]

Yes.

I did a similar type of "safety" course at the now defunct Sheffield Airport. It was an excellent course designed to dispel the 'biking myths such as braking hard, braking in corners, swerving to avoid stuff etc, etc. The braking excersise was particulary good, a cone was put out several hundred metres away and the question was asked were we thought we would stop  at 60 mph. Obviously we estimated waaaay on the side of caution, when we did the excersise we were all able to stop in a much shorter distance than we expected without any real drama. The tyres on modern (ish, my Brother in Law was on his 850 Commando)'bikes coupled with disc brakes made stopping easy. We repeated this moving the cone closer and closer still without drama. My 'bike didn't have ABS, the plods were on FJR's, they were happily out braking us without troubling the antilock.

I have yet to summon the courage to try the cornering ABS and stability control on my KTM, it apparently works very well.

[Joe Rocket]

Yes TLP, we did the guessing game over distance too. We mostly underestimated the travel before stopping.

AMAZINGLY! the same speed and guesswork was applied to an Audi car stopping and the distance was identical (to the eye that is) because the car's momentum with it's four brake discs couldn't overcome the weight/momentum.

How about countersteering? I use it for gentle rolling through faster bends more than an escape route in case of contact.

[wurzel]

   I do practice emergency braking from time to time, it is good to know what the bike can do, I sometimes pile on the brakes from high speed for the same reasons.
   Countersteering is a great tool, and well worth becoming familiar with, though we all use it subconsciously.
 

[Andy M]

I practice the brakes when I remember and countersteer every ride (although I'm a bar puller not pusher).

I still do a bit of crash investigation. Trucks not bikes, which record what the brakes were doing. Old vehicles without AEB usually come in under 25% decel, the drivers just don't push the pedal to the floor. They usually describe ABS activity as either brake failure or skidding and a few react by taking their foot off the pedal. AEB is the answer for vehicles with more wheels, but knowing how it feels has to be the best solution until it comes to two.

Andy

[tallpaul]

I have never done a course on this but they sound like a very good idea. I found the brakes on my Strom were quick to activate ABS even in conditions where you wouldn't expect it to but I suppose it was good to know it got occasional use. I must try out the super tenere ABS at some point. I have had cause to brake hard on it twice and both times it pulled up without drama. Also, with the S10 I've found that I counter steer all the time on it. Must be because of the weight! I'm a bar puller too. I used to practice it on the Strom but I find I do it all the time now.

[Loz]

Used to do skids on my sports bikes and on the Enduro bikes,but don't on the Strom, also on the Enduro bike I quite often when attempting stoppies momentarily skid the front wheel.
As for counter steering, I do it, but I find its a normal thing I do as opposed to a pre thought out action.

[Gassoon]

My 2017 wee is the first bike I ever had with ABS - never even noticed it working yet! Reading this, I might try an emergency stop just so it doesn't surprise me in real life 

Most of my biking life I'd never heard of 'counter-steering', but when I did (possibly on this forum) I realised I was doing it anyway, had independently evolved it, sort of! However, once I read about it and thought about it, I find I practice it more - to the betterment of my riding skills. It's made me wonder what else I might improve. Teaching old (ish) dogs new tricks

[Griff2]

Counter steering is an integral part of my daily ride, and truth be known it is probably a part of all of our daily rides whether we realise it or not. The level or agressiveness of counter steering used can vary of course and that is probably what was referred to in the course that the OP describes.

On ABS I do not activate it deliberately as normal practice but I have done on a couple of rare occasions. 

[Joe Rocket]

I think we all use counter steering to a degree, some more than others and no doubt in differing 'amounts'.

As you say Griff2 the object of the exercise was to use it as a tool to avoid another vehicle, something you wouldn't normally try.

As for ABS it was made clear that everyone ought to know what happens and how the bike feels and reacts when fully 'locked up'. It included planting both feet solidly on the footpegs, nipping the tank with your knees and arms fully extended and braced (to avoid the momentum of the bike from allowing your body to be thrown forward and the same for your pillion rider behind).

Have ABS, must practice! 

[Freddyfruitbat]

I have yet to summon the courage to try the cornering ABS and stability control on my KTM, it apparently works very well.

I recently dropped my RS fairly spectacularly on a fast bend, the cause being 100% poor obs - I just didn't spot that the corner closed up as much as it did.   Now, I have zero memory of the whole event, from the 'oh shit' moment as realisation dawned, up until about 5 mins later when I came round in the recovery position to the sound of 'can you wiggle your feet for me?'.   (I'm fine apart from my collar bone, BTW. Thank you, airvest)

The point is I have no idea whether I tried to brake or not - the bike has cornering ABS - but I'm willing to bet that in the split second I had for a decision, I wouldn't have done, it's just so ingrained not to.   I've certainly practised activating the ABS in straight-line emergency braking, and although I've never activated it for real I wouldn't be worried about it should the occasion ever arise.  But I really can't imagine testing out the cornering ABS, which (assuming I didn't use it a couple of weeks ago) leads me to ponder if it's even worth having?

[TLPower]

Bad luck on the break Mr Fruitbat.

I have a deal for you.

When you are fit and well and riding again YOU try engaging the cornering ABS and stability control on that same fast corner.

If it works, I'll try it as well. How does that sound?

Deal?

[Barbel Mick]

 

[wurzel]

Can I take your blood pressures after, one with the lowest gets a badge...

[TLPower]

A sticker please Wurzel.

With my blood pressure a pin would have us calling for Red Adair to stem the inevitable gusher.

[Rich:-)]

But I really can't imagine testing out the cornering ABS, which (assuming I didn't use it a couple of weeks ago) leads me to ponder if it's even worth having?

Yes.. I think I tested mine in the first week of ownership, and if so it worked fine.

I think the corning ABS has saved what would have been a very messy corner. I accidentally grabbed too much front brake whilst leaned over (the initial bite is way stronger than on my SD990) and I heard the front tyre squeal.... but nothing untowards happened. I stayed leaned over (the bike didn't stand up straight), the bike remained balanced and I made the corner with ease... I'm now a believer.

The problem now is reprogramming my mind that it's "OK the grab a handful" when on the 1190 but don't do it on the 990 Superduke as that will end in tears.

[wurzel]

It's not fitted on any of my bikes, wish it was, but it would take a lot of courage to break all the hard learnt rules about braking in a corner,fantastic technology!