idle hammer ?

[doboy]

Can anyone tell me have Suzuki solved the problem of "idle hammer" on the latest 1000cc V-Strom ? I have been hanging my nose over one, but keep remembering having a test ride on a 2014 that had idle hammer, and ear plugs or not, I couldn't live with the racket that was making.

[greywolf]

Individual examples may have it or may not. It isn't like all L4s have it an no L5s do or anything like that. There is also the rider's sensitivity involved. I'd guess about half the riders say their bike has it and half say their bike doesn't. It seems like many report idle hammer begins at the first oil change. Sharealike has a bolt on fix for the Vee adding another crankshaft bearing to the rotor inspection opening in the left engine case. Check with him to see if will work on a Veek.

[doboy]

 thanks greywolf, I noticed when I took the 2014 model for a test ride that it didn't start to knock till the oil was hot . also heard a lot saying it comes on just after the 600ml service ..so..I'm thinking its best to go for a second hand one with over 600mls on it so that I can have a test ride on to detect the knocking.. 

[CHRISHAIGH]

Is idle hammer likely to lead to any problems later in life, or is it just an engine characteristic we have to live with, like clutch rattle on some bikes?

[Brockett]

Seriously, have a look at Sharealike's posts.  IIRC the problem is wear in the clutch basket damper and if so this can become more evident as mileage increases. Whatever the mileage when you check, it could start 10 miles later.  If I had known about Sharealike's mod I might not have traded away the Vee.

[porter]

I think mine has both. The idle hammer I hear the odd time at tick over in heavy traffic but it don't bother me much but the clutch does.  I get a lot of vibration accelerating from 3-4 thou rpm  now that wasn't there before and the clutch can bounce and hop on take off sometimes.

[greywolf]

Neither idle hammer nor clutch chudder is likely to leave you stranded or do any damage. They are basically irritations. Probably the great majority of riders do nothing about either but the more sensitive types might sell their bikes as a result.

[SimonW]

Idle hammer and clutch chudder are two different things. Not sure if I have the latter, but definitely have the former, it's only noticeable on tickover and it definitely started after the first service. But to be honest I only remember I have it when it comes up on the forum from time to time!

[CHRISHAIGH]

Having just Googled idlehammer, and subsequently read related threads on other forums, I find it incredulous that this issue has been ongoing for over 10 years. Why haven't Suzuki addressed it? My 2015 AL4 has had a couple of services, and I have not as yet noticed the  idlehammer, but from what I gather it could develop at any time.
It may well not have any impact on the longevity or reliability of the engine, but who feels comfortable with a knocking bottom end at tick over?  Suzuki must be aware of this as I have read about improvements at various stages during the V stroms production life, and I may be wrong but doesn't the new 2014 engine share little with the outgoing one? And yet we still have Idlehammer!

[greywolf]

It's just a little noise in a bike full of noises. It doesn't hurt anything. I'm more than a little OCD and was not worried though my 2007 Wee had it as it was well documented as not harmful. That bike now has over 126,000 miles on it with its second owner. It isn't broke so why fix it?

[Brockett]

Ah ! yes I got confused between the two. Back to "idle hammer" I'm sure Suzuki would say "it is not a 'fault' it is a 'feature'.
 

[SimonW]

I seem to remember researching it a lot at the time I first noticed it and found someone online somewhere who'd stripped an engine down to try to locate the source and the thinking was that it was down to crank end float.

[sharealike]

To put peoples minds at rest. You are more than likely safe from Idle Hammer once its had a few oil changes. The incidence of Idle Hammer is very rare. Most often comes on the first time you get it hot immediately after the first service and only when hot after that. Was the case on the way home from them in both of my brand new early SV1000 engines. With the second engine I was listening and feeling for it though. Its the inertia of the heavy clutch feeding back into the crankshaft that flicks the crank up and then whips it back down sharply in the main bearing oil clearance. "Crank whip" was the term used by Suzuki's travelling engineer to describe mine. After a long fight they took the fist bike back. Second one was much, much better and after forty plus thousand miles and twelve or more years I still have it today. All be it with a damper on the end of the crank.

Diagnosis - Pull the clutch when you think it's there and it should go away. That disconnects over half the clutch mass reducing the inertia fed back to the crank. If you got it you know you got. I've not had the new clutch with its Suzuki Clutch Assist System out of a new engine yet. My thinking is its heavier than the non assisted 2002 to 2008 clutch hub in the DL. SV back torque limiter clutch very heavy so more affected than DL in the early days. I'm still sending dampers out all over the world.

[Ianmc]

I am curious as to why the "idle hammer"should only start after the first service,if the crank is flexing there is nothing done in the service to suddenly make it noisy.It is not as though the original oil is special.
   

[Simmo24]

Got this from a post sometime back. Sharealikes thoughts on how Idle hammer is caused doing an oil change.

1 - Don't leave it to drain for ever. Starving the mains of oil because the galleries drained completely is probably what causes the problem.
2 - pre fill your new oil filter to the top before fitting it. Some comes out as you tip it to screw it on but even so it saves half a filter of air going into the oil galleries before the new oil arrives at the mains.
3 - always use oil filters with the non return valves and prove that this seals when new before you fit it. If not the oil galleries drain down overnight and you wait for oil pressure and the galleries to fill again on every start.
4 - don't overfill the oil level. The clutch basket dips into the oil and gives the not good damper in the basket a harder time than it needs being flooded with oil. The damper in the basket can change its characteristic at idle for the worst as result of the oil change.

Simmo

[sharealike]

First we need definite confirmation that an engine has the IH. Then the owners can tell us just when they perceive it started.

It is rare and not easy to separate from other noises so lots of false alarms.

Just for the record its not crank flex but crank whip or hop in the main bearing oil clearance only at idle and no load. Engines run for ever with this just like the rest.

[Ianmc]

So,its the draining of the oil and filter,then waiting for oil pressure to rise that causes the noise,I wonder what the cold clearance is in the bearings.I have had a career working on big diesels and most of them when started go straight up to 1500rpm and then have to take load within seconds without any noises.My wee sometimes makes a rattle on cold start but never when hot.I put this down to piston slap as comparing with large diesels the pistons are really short and don't fit properly until warm.   

[sharealike]

I doubt it. More like the crank gets the opportunity to lift in one of the main bearing shells before they have completely filled with oil after the oil and filter change. Once they manage to lift once a small number of engines retain the same habit when oil flow is low at idle and the shells have expanded due to being in aluminium housings. Thinner hot oil the final straw so to speak.

Yes you are right. The pistons are like flat caps or the old dustbin lids. Big wide things with relatively short strokes. An engine specialist diagnosed IH in my first SV as piston slap with his stethascope. The second specialist diagnosed excess main bearing oil clearance at manufacture. Just 1000 or so miles on the bike.

I never saw this come out of a bike myself but a bloke who was set on specially over the winter of 2005/2006 to do nothing but put new shells in early IH ing SV and DL engines told me the running in oil had an additive a bit like STP oil thickener. Said it was stuck there on the bottom of his oil drain pan after draining new engines. Perhaps a combination of the above and washing out of additive. I did see and measure for my self the sets of revised running clearance main bearing shells he was fitting though.

A french SV owner claimed he got IH after his first oil change. Went back and fitted the old filter and his IH was gone. Made me wonder could the additive trapped in the filter be enough to recondition his oil. The new oil having washed the additives coating off the bearing surfaces and his old filter full was enough to restore it. One sign owners have IH is that before they find me they have tried every replacement oil they can get that they think will cure it. Not even a 20/60 (that's still thick when hot) has much effect though.

I have proved beyond doubt it is crank lift and then whip by designing and developing a damper to address this. The last version running in my own engine for over 10,000 miles. I measured running clearance cold and hot at both ends of the crank to determine what a safe level of damping and clearance within it could be tolerated. Can't risk encouraging the crank into positions it will not like that make it more likely to IH. Last thing I want to do is supply a part that makes the situation worse in those mains. White metal that the bearings are coated with is very soft and damages easily.

Twins and singles with just two main crankshaft bearings, a flywheel/generator on the crank mounted outside the bearings and drive taken off the crank with primary drive gears again outside the main bearings are prone to this knock at idle. Its testament to Suzuki's engineering that most don't knock so they don't have to add another bearing or two to get them quiet. Many other manufacturers have.

The next worst knock I know of is in the Honda CX500 engines. Used to be a joke. Knock knock who's there? Honda. Honda who? Honda CX500. The engine designers for BMW have replicated its main shaft layout in the latest version of their boxer twin. They had to put a third bearing in the flywheel generator to support the crank. Ducatis have had them for years. Now I'm going to be careful what else I disclose because it can be repeated by others without giving recognition, source or correct context.

[SimonW]

First we need definite confirmation that an engine has the IH. Then the owners can tell us just when they perceive it started.

1. Yes, definitely.
2. Definitely immediately after the first (700mile) service.

[sharealike]

Hope you don't mind me asking a few questions.

Do you feel it more through any particular part of the bikes structure?

Does the nature change clutch in versus clutch out?

What difference if any as the engine temperature increases?

And one more - Do you feel it as you coast to a halt? That last yard or two when still in a gear as you pull the clutch to the bar to avoid stalling the engine when you stop.