Author Topic: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)  (Read 2755 times)

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Offline geekay

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brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« on: September 08, 2013, 13:57:16 »
OK - so I think I cured the low speed squealing / shreiking / groaning noise - but the lever is and always has been (since I got it) rather spongy - I don't think the brakes are working as well as they could.

So I'd like to embark on changing fluid and bleeding properly.

First question - does the ABS system add an extra complexity to the process? or is the process for replacing fluid and bleeding basically the same?

Next - what do people think of vacuum bleeders? - I know of the mityvac - but similar 'copy' products can be had for a little over £20 on the 'bay and look effective? anyone use them?

The other thing I am curious about is "speed bleeder" nipples - I'd never actually heard of these before a search on this forum - anyone use them? would they negate the need for the vacuum device above? - any good? and if so, what size do we need for our 'Wee' callipers?

thanks in advance oh helpful people.

g

Offline Locky

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2013, 14:17:39 »
I always use a Mityvac and it does a great job even on ABS bikes . A big syringe will do the same job .

Offline greywolf

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2013, 14:18:11 »
ABS brakes are bled the same way as standard brakes. I use speed bleeders but their only advantage is they make bleeding a one person operation. The bleeders don't need to be closed when the lever is relaxed. A vacuum device eliminates brake lever use entirely. Still, the need is to clear any air from the lines. The speed of fluid movement using a vacuum device can help with that. An air bubble can lodge in the front master cylinder area. Cracking the master cylinder banjo bolt can release a little air. Tying the lever back overnight can allow a bubble to work its way up too. Another device pushes fluid into the system from the bottom. It is said to be the most effective for keeping air out of the system.
Pat- 2007 DL650A was ridden to all 48 contiguous states. 2012 DL650A outlasted me.
Nicknames I use to lessen typing, Vee = 2002-2012 (K2-L2) DL1000s. Veek=2014+ (L4+) DL1000s. Wee = 2004-2011 (K4-L1) DL650s. Glee = 2012+ (L2+) DL650s

Offline bosnjo

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2013, 21:38:37 »
I've had exactly the same problem though on ATV, since day one. It took one year to find the problem, so my experience may give you some ideas on what to look at on yours.
Symptoms on mine were:
- Brake lever spongy
- The longer I ride, brake lever becomes more and more spongy

First thing I discovered was, after 10 km's of riding using brakes, wheels (in plural because I'm talking about ATV), wheels started to brake by themselves. Then they would become hot, then very hot. By the logic, pads where dragging on the disk (that is why you had squealing) and after some miles brake oil would become very hot and expand. Pads would get very hot as well and their braking ability would get reduced dramaticly. Before all that diagnosys I also changed the fluid but there was no improvement.
So, I started to look for a reason and found one brake line cramped that didn't allow pads to retract completely and after brake oil gets too hot it doesn't even metter anymore, brakes were actuating by themselves.
So, you need to find the reason why your brake pads are dragging. Start with bike cold, engine off, move it by hand and see if wheels move freely. Then ride some time using brakes and do the same test with engine off. In both ocasions, wheels have to move freely. Touch close to the center of the wheel, is it hot? It shouldn't be.
One more thing, that ATV that I'm talking about had adjusting screw on caliper, that controlled the retracting of pads. Service Manuals always called attention not to screw it in too much as it would provoke brake pads to drag. It served when pads get worned a bit, you would screw it in just a bit so pads don't shake too much between disk and calipers. Does your bike have adjusting screw that needs to be backed up a bit?
I still don't own V-Strom so can't help you much more but had many years of experience as car mechanic.
Just as a note, the ATV I was talking about was not a piece of junk, it was Polaris Sportman Touring 850 PS and I paid 15.000 euros for it. It was top of the line at 2011 and it's now waiting to be sold so I can get myself a Wee (or Glee, who knows).
This was just general idea, something maybe simple to fix. In the worst case scenario there is one of the seals in caliper broken or one of inner seals in master cylinder (if your bike has one). But that's just the worst case, it's probably something simple as it was on my ATV.
Ah, one more thing. My pads were wearing too fast. Lost 3/4 in one year, then after fixing the problem, one year later they were the same. Are yours wearing too fast?
DL1000 2017 white
DL1000 2014 red (sold)
DL650 2012 white (sold)

Offline bat-kam

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2013, 19:53:26 »
Quote from: "greywolf"
I use speed bleeders but their only advantage is they make bleeding a one person operation.

Does anyone know what type of thread I need? is it M10x1.25mm or something different?
Suzuki all the way: '98 Bandit > '99 GSX600F > '09 V Strom DL650 > '09 SV650S > '10 V Strom DL650 > '04 GSX-R 600

Offline greywolf

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2013, 21:20:14 »
Front M7x1.0
Rear M8x1.25
Pat- 2007 DL650A was ridden to all 48 contiguous states. 2012 DL650A outlasted me.
Nicknames I use to lessen typing, Vee = 2002-2012 (K2-L2) DL1000s. Veek=2014+ (L4+) DL1000s. Wee = 2004-2011 (K4-L1) DL650s. Glee = 2012+ (L2+) DL650s

Offline bat-kam

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2013, 21:49:56 »
Quote from: "greywolf"
Front M7x1.0
Rear M8x1.25
Nice one :). Always can count on you graywolf
Suzuki all the way: '98 Bandit > '99 GSX600F > '09 V Strom DL650 > '09 SV650S > '10 V Strom DL650 > '04 GSX-R 600

Offline geekay

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2013, 22:53:08 »
Indeed - thank you
G

Offline geekay

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2013, 15:48:48 »
As a follow up. I bought a vacuum bleeder device and it arrived today so my plan is to go buy some DOT4 and let it sit for a day before tacking bleeding / fluid replacement at the weekend.

I'll watch some YouTube videos to get some tips as never done this before but willing to take my time and learn.

How much fluid does the system hold by the way? Any ideas? How much brake fluid will I have to buy? 250ml do it?

Offline bat-kam

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2013, 15:54:36 »
Price difference between small and big bottle of brake fluid is not huge so I would suggest to but 1 litre.

I tied the brake lever to the bar over night but that did not improve anything. If only I could have firmer brakes :(.
Suzuki all the way: '98 Bandit > '99 GSX600F > '09 V Strom DL650 > '09 SV650S > '10 V Strom DL650 > '04 GSX-R 600

Offline greywolf

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2013, 16:15:30 »
250ml is plenty. I just flushed all my brake lines, ran more than enough fluid through each bleeder and still had fluid in the container. Besides cost, there is disposal to consider.
Pat- 2007 DL650A was ridden to all 48 contiguous states. 2012 DL650A outlasted me.
Nicknames I use to lessen typing, Vee = 2002-2012 (K2-L2) DL1000s. Veek=2014+ (L4+) DL1000s. Wee = 2004-2011 (K4-L1) DL650s. Glee = 2012+ (L2+) DL650s

Offline geekay

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2013, 16:17:26 »
Yes. I've also tried tying the lever back overnight and it didn't really help things.

My worry is that they don't actually need bled and this is "as good as it gets"

I am hoping for an improvement though. I can just about pull the lever back to the bar and I'm not trying particularly hard. They must do better than that!

Good point on the bottle size. I was more thinking that a small bottle would be easier to pour into the reservoir. I don't want to make a mess!

Offline frez

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2013, 16:22:35 »
I poke two holes on opposite sides in the silver paper that is on top of the container. The fluid will come out of one hole (at the bottom) and air will pass into the other (at the top). This allows me better control over the pouring. Hard to describe, I hope I did it justice.
Now on a Super Tenere having put 64k miles on a 2011 DL650

Offline bat-kam

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2013, 16:49:22 »
I was advised to look into upgrading the calipers to the ones from SV1000 with some fancy bracket. They are 4 pot calipers and apparently makes the stopping feel OK :)

I just may visit that option at some point. Don't know what cost is involved though

Kam
Suzuki all the way: '98 Bandit > '99 GSX600F > '09 V Strom DL650 > '09 SV650S > '10 V Strom DL650 > '04 GSX-R 600

Offline greywolf

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2013, 19:13:34 »
The SV calipers need a larger bore master cylinder to work properly. A lot of the cause for what people consider a spongy lever is the smaller bore of the master cylinders since 2007. They have a larger mechanical advantage to ease the required pressure but that results in what some people call a spongy lever. Yes, you can pull the lever to the grip, but if you go out and practice emergency braking, you may find the lever feel is actually quite good in action rather than in static testing.
Pat- 2007 DL650A was ridden to all 48 contiguous states. 2012 DL650A outlasted me.
Nicknames I use to lessen typing, Vee = 2002-2012 (K2-L2) DL1000s. Veek=2014+ (L4+) DL1000s. Wee = 2004-2011 (K4-L1) DL650s. Glee = 2012+ (L2+) DL650s

Offline Jacko

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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2013, 07:57:28 »
+1. Pulling the lever back to the bar is possible at a standstill but it transfers to quite a considerable amount of braking power on the road. The first zx10r suffered from this, radial calipers but lever came back to the bar almost, no amount of bleeding would eradicate it. It didn't affect braking power though.

Also I'd buy a litre of fluid, it makes more economic sense and as long as you seal it properly when you store it it'll be fine to use again.

Offline greywolf

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Re: brakes.... again... (bleeding this time)
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2013, 15:58:01 »
I'd much rather stick to a sealed container for brake fluid rather than one that was simply capped.
Pat- 2007 DL650A was ridden to all 48 contiguous states. 2012 DL650A outlasted me.
Nicknames I use to lessen typing, Vee = 2002-2012 (K2-L2) DL1000s. Veek=2014+ (L4+) DL1000s. Wee = 2004-2011 (K4-L1) DL650s. Glee = 2012+ (L2+) DL650s

Offline Jacko

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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2013, 17:40:00 »
Yes, I'm sure the manufacturers would like us all to do that. :)

I'm still on the same bottle I opened 3 years ago.