Ethanol in petrol

[Keith Cross]

Not sure what others on here use apart for a Vstrom, but some owners web sites are starting to flag up problems with unleaded fuel with ethanol in it.  This is a requirement under EU regulations and the amount of ethanol used is set to go up.
This additive can cause problems with several components of fuel systems from rubber seals in carburettors and injectors to rubber fuel pipes and of course the manifold rubbers.  Other bikes are suffering even worse with the ethanol effecting the plastic fuel tanks.  ethanol also encourages the fuel to `hold' water which can cause corrosion to aluminium and steel fuel system components.
Be aware of this and keep an eye on your won bikes.
One product that is available in the united States (but not as far as I am aware in the UK) is:
http://www.sentrytreatments.com/
A friend of mine is looking at importing this product, but I am sure other suitable, similar products are available in the UK already.
Any thoughts?

Keith C

[frez]

E5 or 5% Ethanol has been used in our fuel for several years now. It is difficult to find out which fuels have it in and which don't but you can assume most do. E10 is being introduced this year as a 'green' petrol. As far as I know the DL650 is fine with it as E10 is used in some US states, but you will get less mpg. Older bikes should avoid it though for the reasons you mention.

[greywolf]

Up to 10% ethanol has been required in my area for many years and has caused no problems in regular use with with bikes built after 2000. Higher concentrations can cause difficulty. Additives really only help with longevity. I get snow on the ground for months at a time in winter so do an ethanol/stabiliser treatment. Otherwise, nothing is required if the fuel will be burned in less than a couple of months.

[Keith Cross]

Greywolf

The effect on many motorcycles, both old and new designs is documented, although this maybe with EN85 fuel, with a class action lawsuit against Ducati lodged in 2010, not sure if its still going on.  
See here:

http://rideapart.com/2010/11/the-ducati ... k-lawsuit/

Their are also cases of problems with the fuel tanks on the Aprilia Dorsoduro documented on the AFI owners forum and this bike was not released until 2008/9.

In addition I have a contact in the motorcycle trade in the USA and several machines are suffering from ethanol attacking aluminium components, especially when the machine is left in storage.

To counteract this several brands of fuel additive are being sold in the USA to counteract this.  

Keith C

[Andy M]

I wonder how you "counteract" ethanol? Any chemical that re-structured the long chain molecule to turn it into benzene would be a miracle. Any that chops it up would precipitate something else out that would do goodness knows what. The result of almost any reaction is water and we know that doesn't burn or do very much good inside a petrol engine.

They sell cures for baldness, stuff to make things get bigger, PTFE to block your gearbox oil channels and even the old "lead replacement catalyst" into exactly markets like this. If you don't know how it works I'd trust the euro standards people over the snake oil salesmen.

Andy

[greywolf]

E85 can only be used on flex fuel engines. I'm talking about E10, no more than 10% ethanol being okay for regular use in V-Stroms. For storage, I use Marine Sta-Bil. http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/products.aspx

If a product can't handle E10 in the USA, the product is at fault as E10 is required for emissions reasons in many areas.

[Keith Cross]

Greywolf

If you read the action, the problems are being caused by 10% ethanol fuel not E85 and the action is against Ducati, not the fuel manufacturers.

This article also shows that the same problem is being experienced with some Aprilia models when using E10.
See:
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/show ... ht=ethanol
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/show ... ht=ethanol

Not sure how the sentry product helps to protect engine components, but one of the problems is water in the fuel settling out and causing corrosion problems.  Several chemical makers claim their product keeps the water in the fuel, minimising the problem.

Keith C

[greywolf]

I get that. I'm saying bike manufacturers who don't account for 10% ethanol in the design should be liable for bikes they sell in the USA and any country that uses ethanol. It isn't like ethanol use is a secret. Stroms don't have any problems I know of as long as fuel is stabilised in storage.

[Keith Cross]

Yes the manufacturer should sell a product that is suitable, which is what the action is about.

But one of the problems if you search and read up on this type of fuel is that Ethanol seems to attach many different rubbers and not just on older bikes.  And from what I am reading we are not talking about bikes that are very old, maybe bike less than 15 years old and maybe early Vstroms could be being effected.  

One of the concerns is that when E85 is introduced many bikes not currently effected could well be.  This could include earlier Vstroms not designed to run on E85.

One of the other problems being experienced is corrosion, particularly with aluminium castings such as carburettors.  

My initial point though was that some here use older bikes (Not sure what others on here use apart for a Vstrom) and could be suffering from this problem now and need to take action to protect their vehicles and machinery that uses gasoline.

Keith C

[greywolf]

E85 is an entirely different animal. A vehicle has do be specifically designed for it to be able to use it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicle

Put it into a non flex fuel vehicle and almost immediate damage can occur. You don't want E85 in a non flex fuel vehicle any more than you want diesel in a petrol engine.

[hookie]

E5 contains 5% ethanol, E10 has10% and E85 has 85%. Most modern petrol engines will run happily on E5 and E10. E10 is very common here in France and has been available for a few years now, although normal 95 octane is usually available along side it for those who don't want it. I know people who run their 1980s bikes quite happily on it although I wouldn't like to guarantee the longevity of their old fuel lines and the like. E85 is a very different kettle of fish. Potentially most modern engines could be made to run on it, but the fuel systems would need major re-calibrating as they need a lot more fuel to run properly. In "old language" they would run very weak and need much bigger jets! Potentially any modern fuel injected engine could be made to work by re-programming the ECU to suit. I suppose it should be possible to switch, either manually or by an auto fuel detection system between different fuels and run the vehicle on pretty much whatever is available. I believe that some vehicles do this already but within what fuel types I don't know.

[Brockett]

Whilst you're thinking about petrol .... does the fancy 'super' petrol sold on UK forecourts also have ethanol in it and if not should I consider using it instead of the 'regular' as I get ready for the winter lay up. (apologies to year round riders)

My friend runs his 2000 XJR 1300 on 'Super', is he wasting his money?

[Jacko]

Some bikes get better mpg from super which offsets the extra cost. The BMW K1200 and 1300 require it according to BMW but a 1200 owning mate ran his on regular on occasion, it seemed to make little difference, again maybe to the mpg.

Some claim to be cleaner and better for you and you kids and dog etc. I just use normal 95, my bikes are designed to run on regular and some say that because Super has a slower, more controlled burn the crude instant bang you get with 95 is better.

[Juvecu]

Brockett, don't think that you need to apologise for not being an all weather rider, we all use bikes differently and you might be more sensible than us crazy lot riding through winter

[Keith Cross]

E85 is an entirely different animal. A vehicle has do be specifically designed for it to be able to use it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicle

Put it into a non flex fuel vehicle and almost immediate damage can occur. You don't want E85 in a non flex fuel vehicle any more than you want diesel in a petrol engine.

Again apologies, I meant of course E15 oe even E20 fuel that is being considered for release over here.  This fuel is only recommended for 2001 or later models so will not effect our bikes.  But if like me you run vehicles made before this then be careful with what you put in your bike.car.

Just had a call BTW yet another call from a GL1500 owner, the fuel tank has rotted out.  Another case of the water in ethanol damaging vehicles?  don't know but maybe it is.  I know that one owner on here has experienced using in his fuel tank.  Could this be caused by the same thing, are our fuel tanks lined with some thing that can degrade due to this fuel?
Think I will use Super from now on as it does not seem to contain ethanol.

Keith C

[greywolf]

There is a movement afoot to make E15 available in the USA. Even backers of the movement warn it is not to be used in older cars or any motorcycle. Goldwings have unlined steel tanks as do V-Stroms. A problem with ethanol is it absorbs water. If a bike is to go unused for more than a month, the fuel tank should be filled to the brim to prevent humidity in the air space from condensing on the tank walls. That is a much bigger cause of rust in tanks than ethanol. A fuel stabiliser should be added as fuel goes bad over time. If the fuel contains ethanol, it goes bad faster so it is vital to use a stabiliser and better if it is formulated to be used with ethanol. If a bike is to go unused for a year or more, it is best to remove all fuel and use an oil fogger in the tank and combustion chambers.

A benefit of ethanol is it helps remove any water that gets in the tank. Commercial products made for that task are basically alcohol.

30+ years ago, I lined my bikes' tanks to head off rust problems. If that procedure is chosen today, make absolutely sure the liner is safe with ethanol.

[TimV]

Has anyone else tried the E10 petrol that is commonly sold in France? Over there on my Vee last month I used it to start with - but the fuel economy was dreadful, over here I get 55-60mpg and I was suddenly getting about 45mpg, with the reserve area of the gauge coming on at about 150 miles insetad of the usual 190-205. I changed over to their super-unleaded and mileage was back to normal, although that fuel was more expensive it was saving me about 25% overall.

BTW, I couldn't notice any difference in performance between the fuels at all.

[Brockett]

I found this:-

http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/wes ... pdate.html


strange regional variations in addition to super unleaded and for Total petrol.

[hookie]

Here in France E10 has been available for a few years. It is however, labelled as such on the pumps and normal 95 and usually 98 octane stuff is available along side it. I've only ever once had to use E10 as the station didn't have any 95 or 98 available. Can't say I noticed any difference in the way the bike ran. To the best of my knowledge ethanol is not added to regular fuel here. Don't know about the UK though. I've never managed to get more than about 45mpg out of mine regardless of how I ride it. I'd like to get it re-mapped as it should be doing more. I don't think the fuel here has anything to do with it.

[greywolf]

Ethanol has about 2/3 the energy of petrol. If 10% of the fuel has a 33% drop in energy, ethanol shouldn't amount to more than a few mpg change. Any more involves other causes.