Author Topic: More Reliable Brakes....?  (Read 2617 times)

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Offline Strommer

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More Reliable Brakes....?
« on: March 25, 2012, 08:08:20 »
Anyone any suggestions for more reliable brakes....?

Every 2k I seem to be stripping the brakes to clean out prodigious amounts of crud, greasing up and basically dealing with disappointing amounts of corrosion.  

The main problems though are the left front which always has irregularly worn pads due to grit (why always that pad?), sticky pistons, pin corrosion and crudding and those fiddly steel pad cages getting bent.  It also surprises me that the split pin pad holder has no rubber cover.  The back one always has something irregular with it as well, be it stuck pins, calipers etc.... :angry-tappingfoot:

Are there any brakes out there which are specifically designed to stay clean and be low maintenance?


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Offline Fatbelly

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2012, 08:55:05 »
Every bike I have ever owned has had these problems after it's a couple of years old. It would be nice to find a solution.

Edited this to add: I live in a place where the weather is completely unpredictable in the winter so there is almost constant road salting.

Offline 2112

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2012, 09:41:16 »
Quote from: "Strommer"
Are there any brakes out there which are specifically designed to stay clean and be low maintenance?

Sadly, just car ones...
It's pronounced 'twenty-one-twelve'

Offline Strommer

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2012, 10:19:20 »
Quote from: "Fatbelly"
...I live in a place where the weather is completely unpredictable in the winter so there is almost constant road salting.

Yeah, forgot to add "removal of salt crystals" - the bloody stuff is actually crystallizing...


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Offline Juvecu

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2012, 13:41:05 »
I've had to regularly clean my brakes because of the high mileage I did. Over time I've found that if you do a good job of it they last a lot longer. I take it all apart, rubbers out, wash it with brake fluid, clean the grooves properly, then warm soapy water. The pins, bleed nipple and bolts get wire brushed, I use a brass coated stainless steel wire brush in a drill, they are £3 off eBay for 5 pack of different brush shapes. Pistons are polished with metal polish, if they have rust the polish can't get off I use 1500 grit water paper, dip it in brake fluid rather than water. Then clean the pistons with brake fluid and soapy water. Rubbers are washed out with warm soapy water, not hot water, just warm. Then clean cold water to remove any remaining soap. I spend time with a cloth cleaning out the last grease from the rubbers that might be left. I use air to dry things off too and an old hair dryer (don't heat the rubbers too much.)

Seals are checked, any damaged ones are replaced, greased up with proper brake grease, put them in, thin one first, thick one second (just easier.) Then put some grease on your finger and rub it into the little groves around the seals so that there's grease in there. Put a very thin smear of grease around the outside of the piston near the bottom, the bit that will touch the seals first when you push the piston in. You don't want any excessive grease to get pushed down into the caliper when you fit the pistons so wipe the excess on the seals with your finger, not a cloth. Push the pistons in by hand, they will go in easily, if they feel stuck, you're pushing a bit skew, push them all the way down.

Now for the special trick: ACF-50 the whole caliper, don't be shy spray it and then wipe it with a cloth so it goes everywhere. You want coverage, not excess, do a good job of it, wipe the inside of the pistons. Use the cloth to wipe all those pins and bolts you neatly cleaned with the wire brush earlier on. Grease all the rubbers and shafts that slide in them, use proper rubber grease, put it all back together and wipe off any excess grease (make sure it all moves well.) Now go wash your hands, you are touching brake  pads next and you don't want any grease or ACF-50 on the pads. Put a thin layer of copper grease on the back of the pad that touches the pistons, just a film to cover it, nothing excessive. Then put the pads in and fit the caliper back to the bike.

Next time you take the callipers off you'll be amazed at how easy it is to clean even if it looks like crap, will take you half the time. My rear brake used to be the worst until I tried to ACF-50 it. Twice after that I took it off, used a tooth brush to clean the bit of the piston that stuck out and pushed it back in by hand because it was still working well even though the caliper was really dirty. Checked that the sliding pins still worked and put it back on without cleaning anything. That's 2 cleans I didn't have to do because it was done properly and ACF-50 coated before.

I have 2 sets of spare stock callipers now that I have changed to CBR600 brake callipers. They got this treatment too, wrapped in newspaper and stuck in ziplock bags for storage. I'm sure they will look as good as new when I take them out of the bags even if they are in there for a few years.
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Offline Strommer

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2012, 16:49:56 »
That sounds close to what I did - though I smothered the things in red grease and didn't do the calipers - as this was an impromptu clean to get rid of all the copper grease I stupidly used last time - DOH!

I'd do it more often if it wasn't such an arse getting the air out of the lines.


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Offline Juvecu

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2012, 16:56:59 »
Get a large syringe and some aquarium air pipe, 6mm inside diametre. Fit the pipe over the bleed nipple, and the other end to the syringe. Then open the nipple and suck the brake fluid through the system. Make sure to keep the brake reservoir above the empty level so that you only suck brake fluid through the system. Each time you get to the end of syringe, disconnect the hose, dump the brake fluid in the syringe into a catch bowl, connect it up again and suck some more. Takes less than 10 minutes and you'll have practically no air in the system at all. Dirt cheap too, will probably cost you less than a tenner for some pipe and a few syringes, they are always handy for other things too.
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Offline Strommer

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2012, 18:10:13 »
That seems to be the way recommended but... why is that so much better than what I do?  Which is connect a length of tubing (probably 6mm as it fits on nice) and pump the lever while pouring in the new fluid?  Is there something about pumping the lever that introduces air?

I've no idea how air even got into the system this time as all I did was push the piston back?   :shrug:


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Offline Juvecu

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2012, 19:18:11 »
It sounds more like it's water absorbed into the brake fluid. It's not a closed system and over time you get water absorbed into the brake fluid. Water compresses much easier than brake fluid and makes for squishy brakes if there is a lot of it. Brake fluid will turn darker the more water it gets. It's just off clear normally, if it goes slightly brown it's time to flush it. You can bleed a system by pumping the brake lever (a LOT), but if there is air in it all you're doing is mostly compressing the air each time you pump. As soon as you get enough brake fluid into the system the lever will feel harder. If you don't vacuum put the pipe you have on the nipple into a container with fresh brake fluid in it. Open the nipple, pump until the tube is completely full of brake fluid from the nipple to the container. Now the nipple can't such any air back in. Close the nipple, pump the lever until it's hard, hold it, open the nipple, the lever will go down, keep holding it, close the nipple. Rinse and repeat until you are happy with the feel at the lever. Sometimes it helps to pump until it's hard, hold it for a while under pressure (a minute or so) then open the nipple, etc. Holding it like that gets any air forced out of the brake and 'pushes' it to a higher point, usually the brake reservoir. You can see some bubbles coming out the top if you let the lever go.

Get the syringe though, it makes it all so much easier (particularly on bikes with ABS.) A 100ml syringe normally has a large enough tip to work well with the 6mm ID pipe.
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Offline Strommer

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2012, 07:19:17 »
Fluid is less than a month old.... :bawl:  I think what happened is that I blinked and some air got sucked back into the nipple.
 
I think the piston seals and the hoses are shot.  Will get a syringe and new lines, front pistons and seals.  Rear piston is fine - just a dodgy seal probably.

So, quick question - how easy should the pistons move?  Mine have always been terribly stiff, even after having been apart and cleaned.


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Offline Juvecu

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2012, 12:15:26 »
They are a tight fit, they need to obviously make a good seal with the fluid pressure and such. But you should be able to push them in by hand with the calipers off the bike. I stick my thumb in the hole and press, needs a bit of pressure, but nothing excessive. If you press your thumb and forefinger together as hard as you can, the pressure you feel on your thumb doing that, pressing the piston in will be less than that (I can't think of any other way to explain it, I just know when it feels right.) Bad seals and crap around them can make problems, so can corroded pistons. I used to replace seals each time, now I just check them carefully and if they are still looking good I clean them, grease them and they go back in. Normally it's the dust seal (the thin one) that damages first, this is why I clean the bit of the piston that sticks out before I press them back in. If you just push the dirty mucked up piston in then you're much more likely to screw the seals up.

Piccy of my shiny clean rear caliper, serviced last weekend. It looks out of place on an otherwise dirty bike :)

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Offline Strommer

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 19:52:41 »
Quote from: "Juvecu"
Get a large syringe and some aquarium air pipe, 6mm inside...

Like this?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Big-Syringe-PVC-Suction-Fluid-Tube-Brake-Bleeding-/250850803158?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item3a67df7dd6


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Offline Juvecu

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2012, 20:43:48 »
That looks fit for purpose :thumb:
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Offline Strommer

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2012, 13:27:56 »
Went to buy new pistons for the front as they are corroded.  Stainless steel are £1 more than aluminium..... what are the merits/demerits of each?


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Offline Juvecu

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2012, 13:36:39 »
Good question, didn't know you got aluminium ones. Aluminium is softer and a lighter, when it oxidises it creates a barrier that prevents deeper oxidation. SS is strong, shouldn't rust easily, obviously heavier. Those are just the things I can think of, there are probably other things that make one better than the other for specific applications. Maybe it's a case of reducing unsprung weight on highly strung sports machines. I'd personally buy the SS ones, but I'm curious about what the real reason for aluminium ones are.

Edit: On further thought it occurred to me that aluminium has better heat conducting properties. It could simply be that aluminium is used because it cools down quicker than SS. That would make sense for race bikes, but it's not needed on a Strom.

Edit 2: I searched a bit and found that apparently because SS doesn't conduct heat as well as aluminium it is better when heavy braking is done. Less of the heat from the disks is transferred to the brake fluid and seals and braking performance is maintained for longer.
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Offline Strommer

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 13:50:24 »
I just want the ones that won't rust and pit.....


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Offline Juvecu

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 14:16:16 »
Unless someone comes up with info that says aluminium is superior then get a good brand SS piston, I think they are normally chrome plated too. If you take care of them they will probably outlast the bike.
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Offline Juvecu

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2012, 14:37:36 »
Shees, they are expensive, I just checked :shock: You can get complete 2nd hand calipers for less.

Edit: Loads of bikes use these calipers, DL1000, DL650, SV650, lots of GSX whatevers too. They are also used by other manufacturers, I think the Versys uses them and I wouldn't be surprised if some Yahmahas and such also use them. It would take a bit of research to double check, but if it means expanding your 2nd hand search options it could save you a few quid if you go down that route instead.

Edit 2: Come to think of it, I have 2 spare sets of these calipers. One of the sets has a possible bent caliper bracket (I wasn't sure so I bought new callipers), but it could have been the bad disks I had on then (they got replaced under warranty.) No seals or rubbers, but pistons are in fair condition. That said I have to check them, they have been stored in a plastic container for very long now and they might not look the same as when I put them in there :) You could use your brackets, seals and just scavenge the pistons from mine. Let me know if you want me to dig them out.

Edit 3: Just found out that the callipers aren't damaged (or have anything bent), it's corrosion in a hole that one of the rubber bushes goes through that causes the rubber bush to restrict the pin that slides through it and consequently the force on the brake disc is skewed and it warps the disc.
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Offline Strommer

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2012, 18:26:45 »
What would you want for the pistons alone?  I'm wondering how much I can clean mine up.  They have been mangled by someones pliers (not mine this time), but could be sanded I guess?


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Offline Juvecu

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Re: More Reliable Brakes....?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2012, 23:30:36 »
Only going to sell them complete else it will be too difficult to get rid of the left over bits.

How bad are the plier marks?
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