Suzuki V-Strom (VStrom) Owners Club DL250, DL650, DL1000 & DL1050
V-Strom specific discussion => V-Strom specific discussion => Topic started by: pr on July 24, 2016, 20:01:48
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Hi all
Not sure to open a new topic, as it is a bit similar to an old issue (http://www.v-strom.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=28671).
While on a (kind of) long trip to Netherlands and Belgium 2 weeks ago, I noticed sometimes at high RPMs a slight loss of power. It was not always as prominent, but slowly getting worse. I put on about 2000 miles since I last had an issue. 90% of the time I put Shell's V-power in the tank, which should have some gunk-fighting additives.
Then, waiting for the ferry back with the engine idling, I noticed a high pitched whine coming from the fuel pump area (the tank seemed to resonate with the sound). It was just loud enough to hear it through my helmet and earplugs and constantly pressure. The, back in UK on the motorway I was trying to overtake some cars and tried to accelerate in top gear from about 80-85 to 90-95 and it took ages to accelerate. I had some luggage, but there was no more than 120kg of meat and clothes on top of the bike. Then last week I tried to rev the bike a bit in 3rd-6th gear and did notice coughs/stutters above 6-7K rpms. It's just not as smooth as before.
How do your Wees accelerate at these speeds?
And how much noise does your fuel pump make when idling?
Could it be the high pressure fuel filter that's clogged? Or perhaps more, because of that whine?
I haven't tested the fuel pressure/flow.
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Paul
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Excess noise and sluggish performance at high rpms are both indicative of a clogged high pressure fuel filter. Here are some threads on testing and a less costly repair than replacing the stock filter.
http://www.vstrom.info/Smf/index.php/topic,3981.msg49535.html#msg49535
http://www.vstrom.info/Smf/index.php/topic,6105.0.html
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Sounds like similar symptoms to Rat Rat's issues a while ago . Although I'd had fuel pump issues that had different symptoms to yours .
I did tests which resulted in a pump and filter change and now all is well .
Testing will give you a better idea ..
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That High Pressure Filter was brand new as was the Pump a few months ago :shrug:
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Exactly, so I was wondering what else it could be.
Is it possible there was a little bit old stuff in the tank that got moved down?
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Do the flow test to be sure. It isn't that difficult.
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+1 flow test
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Looks like this Sunday I will have some time. I was thinking of doing this quick test first: http://www.vstrom.info/Smf/index.php/topic,11603.0.html
Anyone tried that one too?
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That reminds me, I had problem removing one screw. It's the screw that's in the black front part of the fairing: in the middle of that small part underneath the headlights. It's turning, but not unscrewing.
Any tips on how to get it out? I don't want to pull it out.
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Re myself: looking at this video, it's not supposed to be a screw, but one of those plastic pop-things: https://youtu.be/WuLm3fs2nEg?t=253
So best to carefully pull it out perhaps?
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It's still a rivet paul, carefully wind out/pull the centre and the whole thing comes out :thumb:
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Do you need to remove that to lift the tank?
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With that front bit out it's easier to loosen the sides
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Plastic rivets are removed by pushing in the center.
(http://vstrom.info/vsri-gallery/gallery/d/40476-2/plastic_fasteners.jpg)
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He's talking about these Pat.
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I've never seen that type of fastener on a V-Strom. Was that changed/added and you have inside information?
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It's very possible I have a bag of them and it's very possible one or two may have made it onto that particular V-Strom :smirk:
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Honda tend to have those type fasteners for inner fairing panels , they can be more secure .
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Yamaha use them too
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Yeah Honda use them and their s###!
Honda's plastic pop rivets are far better than the Suzuki ones for ease of use as you don't need something to push in the centre, but stick out a long way and aren't as flush fitting.
Those plastic screw in ones are on my top 10 list of hated motorbike fasteners... and I have only 2 on the Varadero.
List includes the stroms front mudguard bolts, rear master cylinder mount bolts, chain guard bolts, oil cooler grill screw, header pipe bolts, TPS adjustment bolts. OK there are a few.
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I see, thanks. I managed to get it out.
New problem. One of the allen bolts of the fairing is completely worn out ###
With some black magic managed to get it out. Definitely not getting that one in anymore.
What's the best place to get some new bolts? Does halfords sell that? I have a dealer nearby, but their workshop is closed on a Sunday.
Or are there maybe even complete sets of screws for a Wee that you can buy and keep as a back up?
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And another question:
If I pull off the fuel line after lifting the tank, will the fuel pour out or is it blocked by the fuel pump? If I do the quick flow test I need enough fuel in the tank (it's now at least 3/4 full)
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You can get the screws from Robinsons Foundry in Kent (with forum discount too).
The fuel will not pour out if you pull the connector apart.
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Thanks Martin, will ask them.
So I did the (quick) fuel flow test. And as expected it's too low. I did 5 instead of 3 on/off cycles to get a better average and got a total of around 200ml, which is less than half of what to expect (according to the test should expect between 500 and 600ml).
I poured the fuel back in the tank and checked the inside. There are some small black spots. Not sure if it is rust. I think I'll try to siphon out some fuel from the bottom and check how clean it is.
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My £3 siphon pump turns out to be quite useless: nothing really came out. But the crap that stuck to the tubing inside the tank gives a little clue that it's probably rust in the tank that's the problem.
I'm going to find myself a better pump and try to get a better sample.
On a side note: does anyone have a tip for a good contact cleaner spray, or similar? Preferably something they sell at Halfords? I'm going to try and scrub out some plugs, while the fairing is off.
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I just had another look at the fuel and took out a Litre or so. As you can see in the picture there is some flaky stuff floating around in there. When I put it on a piece of paper it seemed to look like rust.
So probably I have rust in the tank. That explains why the problem of the clogged pump keeps on coming back..
What would be the best way forward? I guess I need to fix the tank first, and probably need to replace the HP filter or pump.
Any idea what a dealer would charge for this?
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The filter costs usually around 40€, at least here in Italy and then you can buy some treatment kit for fixing the tank rust.
I used a Tankerite kit on my old vstrom 650 from 2006. There are some brands that provide this kind of treatments for the tank.
Inviato dal mio Wileyfox Swift utilizzando Tapatalk
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Can't the pump filters just be cleaned?
I recently replaced the car's in tank pump as it had failed, stripping the old unit for a look see shows they are easy to disassemble.
I'm sure the basic pump itself will either work or not.
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The key components are the filter at the bottom of the assembly, the pattern part is around £8, the Motor is new and won't need replacing. The high pressure filter is a sealed unit and is c£100.
You have nothing to lose, I'd try the high pressure filter bypass mod referenced earlier in this thread.
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An added nice thing about moving the filter to the outside of the tank is it make future filter replacement much easier.
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I have thought about the filter mod. I'm a bit reluctant to drill into the housing, as there were also some stories that said it wasn't very successful.
When you say the filter at the bottom, that's the low pressure filter? Could it be that it's only that one that's clogged?
I still have to open the tank, take the pump out and look inside.
Does the hole need to be drilled into that sealed unit? In other words, if I mess up I need to replace that part?
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The low pressure screen is outside the pump at the bottom. It has large openings that block big stuff like flakes or rust but lets finer debris into the pump where it gets trapped by the finer high pressure filter. I have never seen a case of a pump problem being from the low pressure screen alone although they are sometimes part of the problem. If the screen needs to be replaced, it's very likely the hp filter is clogged too.
If you mess up the drilling, you'll need to replace the filter housing. You would have to replace that anyway if you didn't try the mod.
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How about a second hand unit? http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/2006-reg-Suzuki-DL650-V-Strom-Electric-Fuel-Pump-1009494-/351787504124?hash=item51e82b51fc%3Ag%3Av-AAAOSwtnpXjim7&_trkparms=pageci%253A7dbbdd46-5e7f-11e6-b8e8-005056bb7e3e%257Cparentrq%253A71649d1b1560a793c14494ddfff4ed1d%257Ciid%253A1
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I was considering that too. But don't I need at least a 2007 unit? Found this one http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/311671390138
But I need to know the mileage in it.
And saw this one, but that already had 50K miles
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suzuki-DL650-K9-V-Strom-ABS-2010-2007-2011-Fuel-Pump-Petrol-VGC-49-/222180273471
They look different from the 2006 type. Would they fit?
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Check the part number on a site like Robinsons Foundry, you will probably find the pump assembly remains unchanged for as long as the tank stays the same shape.
If you fix the Root cause (rust/sediment in the tank) then a secondhand unit should be fine. You could always experiment with your unit for the bypass mod once you have a replacement.
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OK, I ordered the pump assembly and a fuel hose. I'll keep you updated
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Good luck, get that tank treated :thumb:
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Yes, need to call a shop to see if it's worth to have it done or buy some por15 myself
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I received the fuel pump and took the tank of to inspect the inside.
The 5 bolts of the fuel pump are pretty tight. According to the service manual they should have some loctite stuff in the thread. How hard can you force it without damaging anything?
I don't have a torque wrench yet, but I'll order one to put it back together.
Also, the 99000-32050: THREAD LOCK “1342” from Suzuki, is that the same as this one (http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorcycle/adhesives-sealants/three-bond-screw-lock-low-strength-10ml-bottle)?
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I didn't add any loctite to them the last time they were put back. Put some effort into it :smirk:
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And don't remove bolts with a torque wrench. Use it only when installing bolts or you can damage the tool if a bolt is stuck.
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Yes, I wanted one for the installation. I saw it needs 10 Nm.
First look at the tank reveals a bowl of bran flakes... When the fumes have cleared I might dismantle the pump assembly and see how that looks.
I didn't buy the POR15 in the end. I saw a second hand tank on ebay that looked in good condition. I might fork out the extra pounds and save myself a dirty job.
Why aren't these tanks made of stainless steel?
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Stainless steel is difficult, read expensive, to curve form and seam weld. It's a painted piece and only gets corrosion inside if it is mistreated. Keep the tank filled with stabilised fuel if it isn't being used for weeks at a time. If it isn't going to be used for over a year, drain the tank and oil fog the inside. Some people like to coat the inside with a permanent coating but that fell somewhat out of favour with ethanol in fuels that liked to eat the coating.
It's leaving an empty or partially empty tank in cold weather that causes problems with moisture in the air in the tank condensing on the metal walls and causing rust. Don't do that and it's likely never to be a problem.
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The inside of that tank looked nothing like that when it was here Paul :shock: I can only imagine that the damage was done (as Greywolf says) when it was sat idle. It seems to me that now you have started putting mileage on the bike the bran flakes have dislodged from the inside of the tank presenting you with this problem :dl_smiley_banghead:
Is a secondhand tank the answer (you could be buying the same problem)? There must be companies who will clean and treat the inside of your tank?
Also, I'd be interested in seeing the inside of the Pump assembly (bottom gauze filter)
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The picture clearly shows all the corrosion occurring at the top of the tank in the air space above the fuel.
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I sent a pretty knackered tank (somebody had tried to repair it with sealer themselves and failed miserably!) off a Kawasaki Zephyr I had to these people... http://www.fueltanks.co.uk/service/motor-cycles/
They did a great job of the repair and respray but it wasn't cheap!!!! Can't remember exactly now, it was a few years back, but it was well over £200 then!
Maybe give 'em a call and ask about the GTS 1750 gas tank sealer?
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I tried my best to keep the fuel level as full as possible at all times. I use the bike about once per week, but sometimes it stands still for 3 weeks when I'm away. Sometimes a bit more, but usually for a trip of about two or three hours. I try to top off the fuel before putting it back. I also let it cool down before I put the cover over it (to prevent condensation).
Any specific kind of fuel stabiliser you would recommend?
Thanks for the tip Mick. But I'm still considering the tank replacement. On the pictures it looked in good condition, and I can have it fixed sooner for about the same price. The dealer quoted a similar price for a rust removal.
I might have a look at the pump assembly this weekend.
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Just a thought, if you go for the replacement tank have a go at cleaning the old one. I had a go at mine but couldn't get the old sealer out, it was set solid in lumps at the bottom presumably because whoever tried to repair it didn't rotate the tank enough to get an even coat on the inside. You haven't got that problem though, just rust.
I threaded a few dozen nuts onto a chain and put it in the tank with the filler and pump holes blocked and shook the hell out of it, for as long as I could, every day for a week or so. On advice I did leave the tank to 'breathe' for a few days before that just in case a spark ignited any fumes left in the tank!!! Then you could try the sealer kit. If it works you've got a spare tank or sell it and get your money back?
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Good point Mick, I will try at some point. It's still breathing in the shed outside.
When putting the tank back together, I should replace the big O-ring between pump and tank. Is that really necessary? If yes, I need 99000-25010: Suzuki SUPER GREASE “A”. Is there an easier to get, and probably cheaper, version of that stuff?
Same for the small O-rings in the pump assembly: should I replace them whenever I want to have a quick look inside?
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PS: with big O-ring I mean nr. 14 and with the small ones I mean 5, 6 and 7.
http://imgur.com/a/ORGpH (http://imgur.com/a/ORGpH)
And another question: while the bike is now partially opened up (fairing+tank off), what would be things to check and grease?
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5,6 & 7 were replaced by me Paul, I'd save your cash.
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Have you split the assembly yet? I'm keen to see the filter at the bottom (item 2 on the diagram).
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No, I'll plan to do that this weekend. Best case scenario is that the flakes were blocking the flow towards the strainer, so it's still in good shape. The the hp filter could also be good then. I'll post it when I know it.
I'll replace the big o-ring then.
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The Suzuki super grease, what can I use as a replacement? Vaseline? It's to seal the o-ring
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The grease is just to lubricate the O-ring so it finds its proper place and doesn't catch or bunch up and deform. Since Suzuki's grease is petroleum based, the O-ring material must be a synthetic that is okay with petroleum products, so Vaseline will work.
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I replaced the tank and fuel pump. The second hand tank looks really good: shiny on the inside. The second hand pump, I;m not yet sure how it works. It is a bit loud when the bike idles and when it primes, so I'm not convinced it's a great improvement. Before taking it for a test ride, I'll take the old pump apart.
I removed the 3 screws of the fuel gage floater and took it off. Now I need to pull the pump assembly out. Do I need to pull really hard? Or did I forget a screw? The K9 service manual I found on this site is actually the pre-K7 pump assembly, so I can't check. It looks similar to the Glee manual though
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I mean removing the fuel pressure regulator holder. I just have to pull it off? It's quite stuck.
After looking a bit harder in the manual (http://www.v-strom.co.uk/downloads/DL650AK9ServiceManual.pdf) I found K7 fuel pump spec on page 550 :shy:
Shaking the pump assembly seems to give a big shower of rusty flakes :shock:
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Really tight fit, that was, but it's apart.
It doesn't look too bad on the inside. All the big stuff is now out of the housing and it's mainly rust and no other crud. The strainer has some rusty dust, although I;m not sure why it has a greyish glow (used to be white). The main problem might have been from the huge amount of flakes that was blocking the flow.
I think I will clean it, put it back together and see if I need to install this pump again.
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I took it for a ride with the 'new' pump. Pump was still a bit noisier than I expected, but it performed really well and the whine is lower than the old one. No problems getting to 9-10k rpm.
So I'm calling it solved. If I keep the tank clean then the filters should stay nice and clean. I'll give the old unit a good clean in the future and keep it as a spare or sell it with the tank.
Thanks all for your input!